SCOTT DETROW, HOST:

In two of the largest democracies in the Americas, women were on the ballot in presidential elections this year. The two elections had different results. Claudia Sheinbaum won the highest office in Mexico while Vice President Kamala Harris lost to former president and now president-elect Donald Trump.

For more on what these two elections tell us about the larger issue of women on the ballot, we are joined now by NPR international correspondent Eyder Peralta in Chihuahua, Mexico, and White House correspondent Deepa Shivaram. Hey to both of you.

DEEPA SHIVARAM, BYLINE: Hello.

EYDER PERALTA, BYLINE: Hey, Scott.

DETROW: So, Deepa, I’ll start with you, and then, Eyder, I want to hear what you have to say as well. Let’s start with this. How much did these candidates make of the fact they would be the first elected woman president of their respective countries?

SHIVARAM: You know, with Harris, she made very little mention of this. It was almost as if she ignored that major marker altogether. And it was really different than the way Hillary Clinton handled that in 2016. You know, there were times where Clinton would come out wearing white, which was a nod to the suffragettes, and Harris never did anything like that.

I think one of the reasons has to do with just logistics. You know, Harris ran the shortest race in modern history. She had to spend the first few weeks of her run introducing herself and her story to the country. And she wanted people to know her as a prosecutor and someone who had the experience and grit and leadership to beat Donald Trump and lead the country. The roughly 100 days didn’t leave a lot of room or time for her to get into gender identity.

And the second reason, which I think matters more, is that she simply didn’t want to talk about how she’s a woman candidate or a first. You know, it’s something that she’s never wanted to focus on, even in the early days of her political career. There are old interviews that Harris has referenced back to where she almost mocks journalists who have asked her questions like, you know, what is it like to be the first woman district attorney or attorney general or whatever role she was the first in? And she’d have this retort where she’d say, you know, well, I’ve always been a woman. It’s just not a part of her identity that she wants to highlight, and I think that’s been true her whole career.

DETROW: Eyder, what about in Mexico?

PERALTA: I mean, very similar – Claudia Sheinbaum didn’t speak about it much. Part of it was that the two major candidates in the campaign were women, so being a woman wasn’t exactly a distinguishing characteristic in this race. And Sheinbaum knew that the social policies of her party were very popular, so she focused on that. That meant emphasizing that her party had doubled the minimum wage, that they had new welfare programs that benefited the working class.

I mean, what is interesting is that she appealed to women in that same way. It was an economic appeal. Her signature proposal was a new welfare program for aging women just short of retirement, and she made the case that it was finally time for the Mexican government to recognize all of the invisible work that women take on. What’s more, she would point out, she, as a high-power politician, was also doing that invisible work. And women, she would say, get things done. And at campaign rallies, this was often what got the biggest applause. So she didn’t run from the history, but it was not the main focus. It was an economic focus for Claudia Sheinbaum.

DETROW: I want to talk about another similarity between the two candidates that was especially notable in this period of global anger at the establishment at incumbencies. Both of these candidates, in different ways, were essentially hand-picked as successors by incumbents. I’m curious how much you think that helped or hurt them.

SHIVARAM: Yeah, I think a lot of folks have pointed out that element of being anointed, right? It didn’t really go over well with voters this year, to your point, Scott. And the nature of this whole election in the U.S. was so abnormal. And what Democratic voters got was a crisis point essentially in this cycle, where Joe Biden…

DETROW: Yep.

SHIVARAM: …Was the nominee one day, and then the next, he just wasn’t. And Harris, you know, was put in a bit of a weird position. She was in charge, but she wasn’t chosen by voters through a primary. One thing that stood out to me was, I’d say, the first two weeks of her campaign after Biden dropped out. Harris started basically every event thanking Joe Biden, applauding him for his leadership, saying that he had made this really difficult decision to drop out. And she had to look like, you know, she wasn’t taking the nomination from him.

DETROW: Right. Biden deeply unpopular – Harris repeatedly resisting, most notably that moment on “The View” where she said she wouldn’t do anything any differently. Eyder, I feel like – different situation here in Mexico.

PERALTA: Totally, totally different context – the incumbent was leaving office with sky-high ratings. I mean, he was leaving as one of the most popular presidents in Mexican history. And Claudia Sheinbaum went through a competitive primary, but she was clearly the president’s favorite. And so she stuck very closely to his policy proposals, and she mentioned the president whenever she had the chance. In some ways, it almost felt as though she was President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador’s vice president. What’s interesting is that that relationship was also used by Sheinbaum’s rival to attack her. They said, yeah, the reason she can become president is because she has a male puppet master. Of course, this was dismissed by Shamba as a misogynist attack, and ultimately, none of the attacks stuck because she won by a landslide.

DETROW: Let’s wrap this up. Big picture – curious what both of you think about what sort of broader takeaways, especially looking toward future elections, we can take from what happened in these two countries when it comes to women running for higher office. Deepa?

SHIVARAM: One thing that stood out to me was, you know, the work that women have done. I think there’s still a long road to go in the United States. There’s still this, you know, high glass ceiling that – and all these barriers that women who are political candidates have to face – their, you know, perceptions on their leadership, their perceptions on their strength, their perceptions on their, quote-unquote, “electability,” which is that word that no one can really define, but we all still talk about all the time. So those hurdles still exist, and it takes time. It takes effort.

PERALTA: Yep. And I think, I mean, again, I think what Mexican feminists would tell you is that organic change happens very slowly, so they made every effort to put gender parity into law. And when Mexico elected a female president, the country’s Congress was already half female. They had had a female Supreme Court Chief Justice, a female top security official, a female secretary of state. And right now in Mexico, the top three political positions in this country are all held by women. And what Mexican feminists will tell you is that this is because of their intentional work over decades.

DETROW: That is NPR international correspondent Eyder Peralta. Eyder, thanks so much.

PERALTA: Thank you, Scott.

DETROW: Also joined by White House correspondent Deepa Shivaram – thanks, Deepa.

SHIVARAM: Thanks, Scott.

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